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3508562 No.3508562 [Reply] [Original]

Tomorrow we will finally see the conclusion to the greatest love story every told. Which side of history will you be on?

Previous thread: >>3494031

>> No.3508566
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Quoted By: >>3511660 >>3511661

Anyone who wants to catch up or who would like a re-refresher can use this list I stole from tumblr of the most Destiel-heavy episodes. If the worst comes to pass you can also watch these for comfort.

>season 4: 4x01, 4x10, 4x16, 4x22
>season 5: 5x03, 5x04, 5x18
>season 6: 6x03, 6x20, 6x21
>season 7: 7x17, 7x21, 7x23
>season 8: 8x02, 8x07, 8x08, 8x17, 8x22
>season 9: 9x03, 9x06, 9x22, 9x23
>season 10: 10x05, 10x14, 10x16, 10x22
>season 11: 11x10, 11x21, 11x23
>season 12: 12x09, 12x10, 12x12, 12x19, 12x23
>season 13: 13x01, 13x04, 13x05, 13x06
>season 14: 14x12, 14x14, 14x18
>season 15: 15x02, 15x03, 15x08, 15x09, 15x18

>> No.3508568
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I hope some fandom oldfags will visit us for nostalgia. This has been a long and winding road for all of us.

>> No.3508570
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>> No.3508573
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>> No.3508575
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>> No.3508580
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I still just cannot get over 12 years of (mutual) pining. That's fucking incredible. Whatever happens tomorrow, they will never be able to take that from us. I'll always be able to re-watch every instance of Cas backsassing Dean or calling him a lumberjack with the knowledge that he's so deeply in love with him that it literally broke the universe.

>> No.3508581
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>> No.3508582
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>> No.3508584
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>> No.3508587
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>> No.3508591
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>> No.3508783
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>> No.3508787
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>> No.3508934

Yeah that went about how I expected it to. Fuck Cas I guess.

>> No.3508935

What a shit ending, what the fuck, i can't stop laughing at how fucking awful this shit was. Also, Destiel fans that kept this show alive for more than a decade got shit on by the people they kept employed for more than an decade. I don't know if this based or just fucking petty.

>> No.3508938
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I have no mouth and must scream. Holy fuck, that finale was GoT levels of bad.

>> No.3508957
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I’ve been out of the game for years because I got tired of the bait but watched it because it was still a big deal to me and some friends, and shit certainly still feels like a slap in the fucking face, just one I was definitely braced for.

>> No.3508972

That's what you get for liking 3DPD.

>> No.3508985

Given how everything has been going these days... hell, years even, I'm sadly not surprised.
polite sage since I have no pics.

>> No.3509039
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Quoted By: >>3509079

this ending will go down as the worst ending in history. still can't believe it's real (I didn't watch it, only spoilers because I WON'T waste more time on this bullshit)

Cas deserved better, he deserve the world and more

>> No.3509059
Quoted By: >>3509077 >>3509092

I don't want to watch it, can someone tell me what happened please?

>> No.3509076
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Okay, so that ending was worse than I ever could have imagined it being. I cannot image one single person who would be happy with that ending. I don't know what to do with myself anymore. There are no words to express my disappointment.

>> No.3509077
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In the beginning of the episode the boys seem happy and fine after everything that's happened. Dean has apparently replaced Cas with a dog. Sam says that he thinks about Cas sometimes and how he sacrificed himself, and Dean just kind of brushes it off. Episode starts as a generic motw, and they work a vamp case. We see that Dean has Cas' coat in his trunk, but without the narrative weight of it being the only thing of him that remained in S7 it just feels like hollow fanservice, and it's not even folded.

A rando vamp from S1 makes a pointless cameo (note that Castiel does not make an appearance in this episode, but this generic bitch nobody remembers does), they fight, and Dean gets skewered on some rebar and dies after giving Sam a tearful speech about how proud he is of him. Sam then burns his body and moves on with his life.

We see Dean go to heaven and meet Bobby, who tells him that heaven is shared now and he can go visit his terrible parents whenever he likes. Jack changed the rules with the help of Cas, who has apparently been back this whole time, is still very much an angel, and never met up with the Winchesters again. Dean barely acknowledges that. He looks up to see Baby and decides the thing he wants to do most now that he can do anything imaginable is drive his car.

While Dean is driving we cut back to Sam, who quits the life, marries a women who is not Eileen (she also gets no mention this episode), has a son named Dean, grows old, puts on a bald cap, and dies in a bed. Cut back to Dean, still driving. He pulls over on a nice bridge, and there is Sam, young again now that he's in heaven. They hug. Nobody else appears. End episode.

Dean never got to live his own life. Cas has never been told that he is loved. And Sam loses his entire family. But at least now they can enjoy an eternity of character regression. The end.

>> No.3509079
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Quoted By: >>3509143

Castiel got nothing. Apparently he just gets to live for an eternity alone now, never to have his love requited. But the happiness is just in the saying, right? How dare you wish for more!

We all thought Jensen hated the ending because it was gay. Jokes on us. He hated the ending because it was terrible. I hope to god it was only like this because of COVID, and that the original script actually resolved their characters. Misha's final credit on this show really was a 5-second prank call by Lucifer. Jesus fucking christ.

Like, Dean met Cas when Cas rescued him from hell. It makes the most narrative sense that at the end of the road Dean would be the one to rescue Cas from "hell", bringing their relationship full circle. It would have been beautiful. It was right there in front of them. They didn't even have to shoot it, they could have just implied it. Like, Dean gets to heaven, but Cas is still in the empty, and Bobby tells him that he can be at peace now, but Dean could be all like "sorry Bobby, there's one last person I have to save", and then instead of driving aimlesslessly he drives off somewhere with purpose. It would have been so easy. They could have even kept the final scene the same, just with an implied timeskip. Why didn't they bite?

When things are back to normal they better as fuck make a movie that fixes this. They should get Edlund to script it. He was the best writer this show ever had.

>> No.3509080
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Quoted By: >>3509295

I choose to live in a reality where the last two episodes didn't happen. Does anyone have any good fanfics to recommend. Preferably canon-verse longfics.

>> No.3509092
Quoted By: >>3509144

Dean got nailed and died of tetanus, sam grew old and his kid told him to fucking die already
the car got to heaven but cass stayed in megahell because he's gay

>> No.3509143
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Quoted By: >>3509238

I remember how I said 19 was the worst thing I've ever seen. How fool I was. I really believed it couldn't get worse, and all those theories about how Dean would save Cas, episode 20 was the true ending, Cas would get his 'i love you' too...it gave me a little hope. I was adamant that he wouldn't be back, but I had faith that maybe we would hear him offscreen. Maybe a "Hello, Dean." one last time. But no. Twitter had to do it because the writers are fucking bitches and can't write for shit.
Dabb never liked Jensen and his jokes about Misha always got on my nerves, it wouldn't surprise me if he wrote it so Dean and Cas would die in miserable ways. At least Cas is now in heaven with Jack, and I like to think they live together and Cas reads him bedtime stories. It's all I can think of. I didn't watch the episode and I refuse to, thanks to a canadian girl on twitter I was able to see spoilers and I just couldn't believe it. My brain kept telling me "She's acting all disappointed and mad because the episode is actually GOOD and she wants to surprise us" , but of course it was bad. very bad. to the point some scenes made me uncomfortable. Dean didn't deserved to die to a NAIL, he wanted off the hunter life and even tried to apply to a job. Sam never again mentioning Eileen was one of the most ooc things I've seem. He had a fucking breakdown when she died and you're telling me that after Jack un-snaps everyone he's just going to forget she even exists? That Dean would really accept Cas' death with a way of getting him out available? No Jody, no Donna, no Garth, no Adam or Michael, no Jack or Cas. Bobby is there but who fucking cares.
Sam marries a literal who and names his ugly ass son Dean a la harry potter style and old sam is so bad I cried laughing

this is truly the darkest timeline

>> No.3509144
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Cas is actually back in heaven, probably getting fucked senseless by Jack

>> No.3509221
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Quoted By: >>3509295

It's been approximately 24 hours since that dumpster fire of a finale premiered. The pain is still raw. None of the cast members have spoken. Jensen Ackles has unfollowed Dabb on twitter. The finale is currently the third lowest rated episode on iMDB and dropping. Angry gays are donating thousands of dollars to the Trevor Project in Cas and Dean's names. And how are you doing?

If nobody else has a good alternative ending fanfic to recommend may I suggest where the weeds take root by deathbanjo? Currently re-reading to take the edge off.

>> No.3509238
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Quoted By: >>3509300

>this is truly the darkest timeline
You're not wrong. This would have been easier if 15x18 didn't even happen. They should have just kept it mediocre and disappointing from the beginning if they were going to finish it like that. Why did they have to give us hope? Make a few episodes that were actually kind of great, clearly build the emotional core of the season around the relationships between Dean and Cas and Sam and Eileen. And then completely snuff it out at the final moment, throwing away everything of the show's message of found family and 15 years of character development? Finish the season whose whole plot revolved around defying destiny by killing the leads in the manner they always believed they were destined to die? Sam found purpose with the Men of Letters bunker and leading the hunters, so now he's just going to walk away? Dean was actively trying to choose a different life with that job application, and they didn't let him. How are they not Chuck?

And seriously, the Night We Met is a Sam and Dean song? Did they really go full incest? They chose implied wincest over confirmed destiel? That's a fucking awful hill to die on.

>> No.3509295
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Quoted By: >>3510085


Ao3 is bubbling with fresh fanfics right now, but they're new and most of them are still unfinished (- the one-shots). I know many writers who are still writting long fix-it fanfics, so it may take some time to see them. I recomend A single, necessary epiphany by playedwright (1/2) not very long but I like how they wrote dean

>where the weeds take root by deathbanjo
I will give it a read

>And how are you doing?
better, I guess. My brain thought the ending was so ooc and full of shit that i'm relivied I can read fanfic without feeling weird about it. Like, remembering things that happened in canon that would make the read invalid. But supernatural is kind of a fanfic too? A fanfic where the writer went insane at the ending but it's just a show and we can do whatever we want with it.
I don't even care anymore if people are bashing supernatural for the ending. it deserves it. imdb is currently at 6.6 lol
Mad castiel stans on twitter donated to the Trevor Project in honor of Cas' ending, the goal was 1k and we raised 13k in one single day (!) so that made me happy too

>> No.3509300
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Quoted By: >>3510090

Yes, if the ending for destiel was going to be this awful...I would prefer an alive, present Cas than getting what we got. At least he's out of the empty again, but we never see how Jack rescued him. The whole episode felt just like a big fanfic (Sam's son telling him he was free and could go...really? Man, really? I laughed so hard) and for me and many others, The night we met is still 100% a destiel song. It doesn't even make sense for Sam/Dean to have it lol. We know the confession scene was supposed to be longer, and now only Jensen has it on his phone. Don't know if he'll ever post it, it's probably very sentimental for him and Misha.
I was really mad about Cas not being in the episode, and only later I realized how fucked up Dean's death was. Can you imagine fighting god himself and then dying by a nail? It doesn't matter if the winchesters are now free of Chuck or whatever, it still FEELS like Chuck wrote all of this (which it's kinda true I guess, because I remember someone saying how Becky published the rest of the books, and that's why this ending is Chuck's ending, so....he won, in the end). I feel sorry for Dean and his fans, he really wanted a calm life and I'm so sure he would've gotten one with Cas in heaven but he was becoming way too gay and he had to die. Love loses.
The rest of Sam's life is a joke and I couldn't take it seriously at all. Just saw someone thirsting over old Sam and his one dolar wig on twitter today and lost all hope.
Also F for Miracle, it was very cute when Dean hugged him on bed tho

>> No.3510068
Quoted By: >>3510092 >>3510357

How do you all feel that Jimmy Novak was originally supposed to be in Dean's heaven and not Cas?

>> No.3510085
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Quoted By: >>3510383

>A single, necessary epiphany
Ooh, this looks good! Thanks for the recommendation.

It was nice to be able to channel my energy into something positive, like donating to charity. I feel like it's a good way to quantify our unhappiness in a manner that the producers can't ignore. The Dean project set up with NAMI is raking in some good numbers as well, but it's hasn't been nearly as widely retweeted as the Cas Project. I don't think Misha or Jensen have made any comments about it yet, but I'm dying to know their reactions. I hope they understand that the fan backlash isn't directed towards them.

I Also just finished a really great fic call Circadia by imogenbynight. It's not a fix-it fic or alternate ending, and it was written back in 2015. I just want to share it because I think it was good.

>> No.3510090
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>We know the confession scene was supposed to be longer
Yeah, and we know from Misha now that there was originally a different ending that had more of the extended cast members in it including Cas, and it was cut because of COVID. But I really don't buy COVID as an excuse for completely writing everyone out of the finale. Even if they couldn't be there, they could have mentioned them. Sam could have video-chatted with Eileen, or maybe had pictures of Eileen, Charlie, Jody etc. on his wall during his death scene (he didn't even have a wedding picture, just blood relatives). Bobby could have mentioned more people than just Dean's abusive father and shitty mother (why are they in heaven, again?). And if Jim Beaver could quarantine to appear for one 5 minute scene, why couldn't they get Misha to do the same? I thought he WAS quarantining. Something else was going on.

And Dean's death was super fucked up. He'd been raised since childhood to believe that he was an expendable soldier who's only purpose was to serve his family and who didn't deserve a long happy life or a family of his own. So after 15 years of character development they decide to kill him young in a pointless way as an expendable soldier who's only remaining meaningful relationship was with his brother. They even showed he was trying to leave the life with that job application just to rub salt in the wound. What happened to free will and choosing your own destiny? And they absolutely killed him because he was bi, since they knew that the only path Dean had to a happily ever after was with Cas, and they didn't have the balls to go through with it. The ultimate take-away from that episode is that death is preferable to living, which is a terrible message to end with, especially by using a character with well-established suicidal tendencies. In the end, Supernatural is a story about how hate triumphed over love.

Miracle was adorable, though. The one good thing to come our of that episode.

>> No.3510092
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Quoted By: >>3510357

I think you better have a source for that claim if you want me to take it seriously.

>> No.3510357
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Quoted By: >>3510375

Never mind, I see people talking about it now. But I haven't seen or heard the exact quote yet. Was Jimmy going to be there instead of Cas, or were both of them supposed to be in the finale? If he was just supposed to make a cameo in addition to Cas being there then that seems pretty dumb and pointless. Jimmy is probably the character we least needed closure on, since Cas already told us that he was in heaven. I'm sure he's been fine chilling with his wife. And honestly, I really don't care. Jimmy was in one episode and he was annoying as shit.

If he was supposed to be in the episode in lieu of Cas then wew boy! That's not just idiotic, that's incredibly cruel to Dean and a huge fuck you to the fans. I'd be impressed that they actually managed to write a script that was worse than what we got.

>> No.3510375
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Quoted By: >>3510487


Someone posted about it on twitter, with audio and everything but It was deleted since we weren't supposed to know about it. I heard the script had different versions, and one of the endings was this one.

>Was Jimmy going to be there instead of Cas, or were both of them supposed to be in the finale?

Get this: only Jimmy. Cas would still be in the empty for being gay and we would've got the heterosexual and christian version of him. Hooray! There are so many things wrong with this. I can see the shitshow, but I can't see the logic. Why Jimmy? He hates Dean's guts and would beat him to death (again). WHY would he be in Dean's heaven???? Dean barely remembers him and Jimmy already has his own heaven with his wife. And I still think a Heaven without walls is just...I don't know, kinda lazy? I don't have it because the souls can interact and all but, it feels lazy?
I like to think that Jack's office now is just a baby bedroom with infinite nougat and chocolate milk. He deserves it.

>> No.3510383
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Quoted By: >>3510496


Jensen's been pretty silent about the ending, and we don't really know what Misha thought about it. I think Misha is pretty sad, and Jensen's blood is boiling (maybe not so much since he had to forcefuly accept Dean's ending). Dabb said they were planning on a big reunion with dead characters in Dean's heaven, but due to covid it didn't happen; BUT Ellen's actress had no idea they were planning it, as she said on her twitter yesterday. What a big fat lier he is, but no surprise.
I doubt Jared will say something about it, since he still works in CW and in his last virtual panel he was sucking bibros balls.

>Circadia by imogenbynight
added to my list, i love 2012-2015 fanfics

>> No.3510487
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Quoted By: >>3510699

Misha said that? That's unbelievably asinine. There has to be more to it then that. No fucking way any writer would be so stupid as to think bringing Misha back for fucking Jimmy Novak in the finale was a bang-up idea. Maybe he's just saying bullshit to get the network to come clean?

I don't want Jack to be in heaven, I want him to be raised by his dads. I want him to go to school and go on a first date and make friends his own (apparent) age and just focus on being a kid for a while. I want him and his step-sister Claire to bond over how annoying Dean is and how overbearing Cas can be. And his relationship was Sam was so sweet! Jack really brought out the best in him, and it was so nice to see Sam falling into a paternal role after being treated as a baby brother for 12 seasons. Why couldn't we have had that family in the end?

>> No.3510496
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Quoted By: >>3510724

There's definitely some conspiracy going on here. There is photographic evidence of Misha in Vancouver during the filming of the final two episodes, and he said in his chat with Micheal Sheen that he would be going back to film 1.5 episodes in August. Apparently (according to the production boards) the final cut of the last episode was missing something like 11 scenes? And no fucking way The Night We Met was an incest song. I swear to god.

It's pretty cheap that they would use Harvelle's bar without ever intending to include the Harvelles, but maybe they were at least planning on including (original) Charlie and Kevin? I'd be interested in hearing from Felicia and Osric, see if they were initially scheduled to be in the finale. Aside from Bobby, those two seem like the absolute bare minimum for a corpse party reunion scene, so if they were never invited then we know with certainty that they're bullshiting us. Knowing Dabb, he probably wanted John and Mary to be in the finale too, and I thank COVID for sparing me from having to watch another scene of Dean forgiving his father for a lifetime of abuse and heterosexually embracing him for the precise amount of time allowable to show masculine emotion.

By the way, Dean spent approximately the same amount of time in hell as he did on Earth, and John outlived him by about a decade. Let that sink in.

I can't imagine what emotions the actors are feeling right now. I feel so sorry for them. How are they supposed to feel closure with this series when they were robbed of a good ending for their characters and when the fans are in an uproar? It must be agonizing for them to keep their silence. As much as I want to know the truth, I also hope nobody gets themselves sued and blacklisted over breaking an NDA.

>> No.3510699
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Quoted By: >>3510833

He did, I'm sure there's a transcript of that convo in Northern Sparrow's twitter.

>No fucking way any writer would be so stupid
Heh, nothing personel kid but this is supernatural writers level we're talking about. They ARE stupid, it's like they know what the audience doesn't want and go and write exactly that. I'm sure Dabb did just that. I don't want to thank covid for this ending because I don't want to be in the same group as those people saying thank you covid for this canon incest~!
In the end, with covid or not, no one would've liked that ending. Sure we have more flaws now but the fact that Cas would still be dead for being gay...it's sickening. As a bisexual myself I feel so awful thinking about it. And I'm sure if Misha watched the show, or talked to his fans for some hours we would change his opinion. I feel like he, too, just like Jensen, was gaslighted into accepting these awful fates to their character through the years.

>> No.3510724
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Yeah, I still believe Misha was in Vancouver because it just makes no sense. He even had the view of the mountains in his room, it makes no sense. It's like there's something more we don't know about, and probabbly will never know. I think Charlie/Kevin were supposed to be there too, yes.

It's kinda funny how before the episode aired my tl was full of spn praise, and after it dropped I could only see the fans slowly going mad and in denial and all the actors went silent. I think they can't really talk shit about it but the silence speaks volumes lol

>> No.3510745
Quoted By: >>3510807

God, are you guys really going the fucking TJLC route?
Are the fucking powerpuff girls going to back you up on this one too?

>> No.3510765
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Quoted By: >>3510823 >>3510899

OK so I'm someone who never gave a fuck about SPN and doesn't plan to either. But I saw all the shitposts over them finally making the angel gay at the last second before killing him and then doing nothing with it after a decade of it being a very blatant running gag.

Is there any place I can get in on this to enjoy it ironically? I like a lot of unrequited love/crush stuff already and one-sided Destiel where Cas is a turbocuck for a trashy straight man is too damn funny. But I'm worried the kinds of people capable of writing that would be too salty, humorless, or autistic to indulge in anything that would be "fun".

>> No.3510807
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Quoted By: >>3510810 >>3510899

I was never that into Sherlock and always interpreted Johnlock as one-sided and/or asexual, so I don't know how much merit their theories had or how delusional they were. But I feel like we at probably have a lot more evidence on our side, because

1) Destiel WAS canon. It graduated from subtext to actual text-text, and that was a conscious choice of the writers and showrunner. It's only the fallout that doesn't make sense to us.
2) We know as an irrefutable fact that the ending was altered due to the pandemic. Nobody can deny that this wasn't the script they were originally going to air.
3) Jensen has 100% confirmed that footage was cut from the confession scene, and strongly implied that the extended take was less ambiguous and either implied or confirmed Dean's reciprocation. If they cut footage there it's almost certain things were cut in other CasDean scenes as well.
4) Nobody involved has denied anything yet. Their silence and insistence that they aren't allowed to speak is extremely suspicious, and to the capacity that they are revealing details they fall in line with what we already suspected (except for the Jimmy thing, that one is completely off-the-wall).

The only questions that remain are what the exact nature of the omitted scenes were, how much was changed because of COVID and how much was pressure from execs, and whether or not Misha was there during shooting and was removed from the final edit or if he never quarantined at all and was just keeping up appearances so as not to spoil his character's death.

>> No.3510810
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Quoted By: >>3510812 >>3510899

My current theory: the beginning of the finale was always going to be the same: MotW filler premise with Dean dying pointlessly (sans Jenny). This was the thing Jensen had a problem with in the writer's room, because it's a shitty ending for Dean, no matter what. But the heaven scene was going to be different. Castiel would have greeted him at the roadhouse instead of Bobby a la Becky's funko forshadowing. There was going to be a big dead person reunion with Bobby, Charlie, Kevin, John and Mary (Ellen and Jo should have been there too, so fuck Dabb). And, of course, the band Kansas, tragically murdered in some freak hunting accident. Rest of the ep would have been the same, with the car ride, the Sam montage and the bridge scene, except in this version Sam would have been unambiguously married to Eileen (and hopefully they would have followed up on the wayward sisters and the AU hunters).

Then the pandemic hit, and they decided to pear down the reunion to just Cas and Bobby since those two are the most popular and plot-critical characters, This meant both Misha and Jim had to quarantine through August (and let's not forget that they had Mark P. and Jake quarantine for pointless roles in 5x19, so they weren't afraid to ask). When network execs saw that the finale was doubling down on Dean and his boyfriend they got nervous that it would negatively impact the viewership of Jared's new show. They must have demanded rewrites late into the quarantine period, or maybe even during shooting (which would explain the missing scenes, the sloppy editing and the episode being 3 minutes too short).


>> No.3510812
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Rather than compromise with the found-family themes that were popular with the queer-leaning hardcore fans but not with general audiences, they decided to veer hard into the masculine fraternal and paternal relationships. Cas' scene was re-written for Bobby, and every other character was forgotten in favor of doubling down on the bros' codependency. Eileen was removed partially because she was a Cas parallel, but mostly so that vapid Sam!girls could self-insert as his wife, and hopefully that good-will would translate into them watching Walker.

So now Jared's out there shilling because he's got a new contract with the network, Jensen's furious because he knows the ending was dogshit, and Misha is mostly just hurt because Castiel and the fans didn't get the ending they deserved. This is the only explanation that makes sense to me. I suppose a less nefarious possibility is that Misha just couldn't quarantine because of his familial obligations, and he really was long-conning us. I don't want to believe he would do that, though. And it's hard not to read into the rancid nuts.

>> No.3510823
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Quoted By: >>3510895

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking for. Fanfic recs, or episode recs? If you want a taste of what Destiel is about, here's a video of many of their gayest moments, but most of them are of the """"straight"""" one being flirty and jealous over the canon gay. If you want an episode list then I've already posted one at the beginning of this thread. I'm afraid I don't have any fics for you of Cas being a cuck.


>> No.3510833
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>I don't want to thank covid
I want to be clear, the ONLY thing I'm grateful for is the fact that Dabb didn't get to wank over John Winchester again. He was the script writer for Lebanon (the one where Dean's greatest wish was having his father back), and he was also responsible for bringing back Mary just to have her be a terrible mother. I feel like he has a fundamental misunderstanding of the dysfunctional dynamics of the Winchester family, and I don't think he appreciates just how profoundly negative the impact John had on Sam and Dean's lives was. He's clearly nostalgic for the Winchester lineage elements of the Kripke era, but Kripke wasn't shy about shining a light on all of John's faults. Dabb sweeps them under the rug. If it weren't for the pandemic I am absolutely certain we would have had a Lebanon pt. 2.

And I get what you mean. I'm an closet-case pushing up to my 30s, and I really identified with Dean's struggle for self-acceptance. So much LGBT representation in media these day shows characters who are loud and proud about their identities, but it's rare to find examples of characters that are insecure and unsure of themselves, especially in narratives that aren't explicitly centered around that, and especially, especially using older characters. Maybe it's silly to look for role-models in TV shows, but I feel like if Dean was able to find happiness through coming to terms with his sexual identity then maybe I would feel more confident and comfortable owning up to mine. But all this show left me with the textual resolution that death is the only way to find peace, and the larger real-world implication that TPTB would rather see people like us killed off than let us gay up their whitebread hetero world.

>> No.3510878
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So Destiel is canon again thanks to Latin America. I hope everyone's speculation is right, and that Dean's "me too" it really was the result of the working off of an earlier draft of the script. I feel a little less certain about it than twitter seems to, since I've indulged in my fair share of fansubs and I know how wildly translations can very from each other and from the source material. I have a feeling we will still be seeing more of this story unraveling in the days to come. I wonder who will be the first to crack.

>> No.3510895
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Quoted By: >>3510899 >>3511040

Mainly been looking for art and fics that aren't afraid of taking the piss, but less in a sour grapes or denial way and more like diving headfirst into everything shitting itself while having a good-natured laugh about it all. Things like Castiel sitting in Superhell with a dopey smile about confessing to his crush. Cas doodling himself holding hands with Dean behind his back. Him peering from the sky crying about his blue angel balls (that have their own set of wings) while Dean plows a random lady or something. The house is burning down, my friends. May as well make s'mores.

Heck, I could also go for silly art in general if you don't mind dumping that. Cas as Kass from BotW, or a turbo autist, or a Biblically accurate wheel angel wearing a trenchcoat, Old Sam going full Doc Brown. Alive Dean getting dressed while a big nail is permanently lodged in his chest, etc. I survived the VLD finale so I can sorta empathize (multishipper btw, wasn't super invested in any pairing being canon). I love chaos, but even though I kept expectations low I still got BTFO. Got rocked by both the mega-haters for daring to joke about it AND the mega-apologists for daring to admit that no, the ending really was shit, so I hope you guys can avoid the worst of that. Oh yeah and we also had our own canon homo get caught up in massive Buried Gays-related drama of his own.

Anyway, if there's any one thing disappointing me about the Destiel memeposting, a lot of it is screenshots of text messages or edits of other shows, rather than fun shoops of SPN into other things like this:

Kek, I wonder what fun political news is going to happen next. Since that seems to be how it goes.

>> No.3510899
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There's a few vids and writeups out there summing up the whole TJLC situation. Worth checking out. I get that you guys have more solid material to base your theories on compared to the Sherlockfags, but even that kind of stuff might not be enough to keep another TJLC situation from blowing up.

Apologies for bringing up VLD again but that fandom went double QAnon after the shitty ending (well, I guess it already was with all the bitching about character ages) and made insane conspiracy theories about what must've really happened behind the scenes. Yeah there was legitimate stuff like leaks and staff confirming parts of the show including the finale had to be changed on short notice and so on. But it quickly spiraled into EVERY SINGLE shipper group using bogus '''''evidence''''' to claim their personal OTP was TOTALLY gonna become canon in the Lost Secret True Final Season but got tossed and replaced with a brand new "fake" season that they fully animated and voice-acted all of in only six months, purely to spite them.

Didn't help that some VAs couldn't stop mouthing off and feeding the conspiracytards because fans vastly overestimate just how much they know about production. Sometimes they had real things to insinuate about behind-the-scenes drama, but it was always super minor/vague shit that had a more obvious, less glamorous explanation than the conspiracytards acted like it was.

Thinking back, even though I tried my hardest not to join in on the conspiracyposting, me trying to make sense of things also turned out to be bunk because it eventually became obvious things were a mess because, basically NOBODY was in the pilot's seat for most of the show's run. Sometimes people gotta cut their losses and not waste their time pinning their hopes on a mythical better version that doesn't exist. Just make the most out of what's left.

Granted I typed this all out before >>3510878 happened so who the fuck even knows anymore.

>> No.3510944
Quoted By: >>3510997 >>3511030

Dude it's fucking Spanish not Japanese with their hundred different words for like or love. Dean straight up said I do too.

>> No.3510997
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Quoted By: >>3511076

Wait so do we know if the Spanish version love confession was still romantic in nature? Maybe they thought they could get away with it because they made it less gay in that version's context.

Or the Spanish dub translators felt they could take some liberties with the audio. Video games do that a lot where the dub and sub don't fully line up, because the subs are supposed to be as literal as necessary, while the dub will change things if it flows better in the native language. Not that sub translators won't also go as far as change entire character backstories sometimes.

Don't get me wrong I think it's weird as fuck too. Even if there's a lot of grasping at straws going on it's looking like a bunch of them might be hooked to a life raft after all. But it's best to eliminate as many alternatives as possible first. Would rather not cling to an early narrative unless it's rock-solid.

>> No.3511030
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Quoted By: >>3511076

I don't doubt that the Spanish version is unambiguous, but right now we don't know WHY they translated it that way. I've also heard my fair share of localized anime dubs, and I know small lines get changed all the time for all sorts of reasons. I think it's possible that the translator was working off of the same script as the English version, but the English one had ambiguity, and maybe the translator realize that and thought a romantic interpretation of the scene was correct. I know essentially nothing about Spanish, but perhaps there is no equivalent phrase to "don't do this" that would have synced to the mouth flaps, or maybe in Spanish that phrase wouldn't have made logical sense in that situation, so they had to use a different line that they felt retained the meaning as the English version. It might help if a Spanish speaker could offer an alternative translation for the English scene as it was aired to prove that it could be done.

Usually, when things are translated in a way that changes the nature of a relationship or sexuality it's because the translators are censoring the script for their more conservative audience (like Uranus and Neptune in Sailor Moon), not the other way around. So I think that lends credence to the theory that they were working off of an earlier version of the script, not just mis-translating. As does the fact that the Spanish version retained the original episode title. And obviously I believe that Destiel was censored somewhere. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. I'm just skeptical that this particular piece is as rock-solid as many believe. Until we get a leak of the original script or somebody involved comes clean I don't think the battle has been won.

>> No.3511040
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Quoted By: >>3511082

Dude, If I had a pic of Cas and Kass, don't you think I would have posted it by now? Fuck, now I need commission money. Rainbow angel and parrot bard would be cute together!

I'll see what I have for humorous and silly fanarts. To be honest, spn's fandom is much more driven on the fanfic front than the fanart front, and a lot of the art doesn't really fit this board's aesthetic. I might have a few things though.

And what you are describing are Ophanim or "thrones". They are the chariots of God. Castiel is a Seraph, so he would have six wings and be made of many eyes and pure light. He also says that his true form is approximately the size of our Chrysler building. And he should be constantly screaming "holy, holy, holy", but I guess the show took some liberties.

>> No.3511041
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Quoted By: >>3511042

>> No.3511042
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>> No.3511064
Quoted By: >>3511076

Got a clip of that scene?
I'm a native speaker and I might as well use my powers for something.

>> No.3511076
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Sorry, Misha has come out to confirm that the Spanish scene was mistranslated and that there was no alternate ending to that episode. Here's a link anyways, since it's nice to have.

Looks like we were right not to pin all of our hopes on a translation error. Feels bad to be right. It's like none of the hellers on tumblr and twitter have ever compared a dub to it's original Japanese before.

Personally, I never had a problem with the ending of 15x18. I never would have expected Dean to reciprocate under those circumstances, and him going tharn while his best friend confesses his love to him and gets slimed away to superhell is and always was completely understandable. I still wouldn't be surprised if they edited it to make Dean appear less affected by the scene than Jensen played him to be. Jensen has basically said as much himself.

5x20, on the other hand, is still incredibly suspicious. I stand by my earlier predictions. Things that are still unexplained:
>11+ missing scenes
>Misha apparently quarantining despite not being in either episode
>Becky's Funko roadhouse scene
>overtly romantic music for the songs of the day
>episode several minutes too short
>Cas' impact on Dean and the story outrageously downplayed despite Dabb writing Dean mourning extremely well before. Fucking Buckleming did more in 15x19
>FIFTEEN YEARS of bi!Dean subtext ramping up this season
>rancid nuts?

Any of these things on their own might be accounted for, but all together it looks bad. And the vampires ripping out that lady's tongue still bothers me. It was such a bizarre and specific detail that made no sense and was never mentioned again. It's like the writers were trying to signal to us that they were being silenced through the use of subtext and symbolism. I have no idea how else to interpret that.

>> No.3511078
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Quoted By: >>3513392

Forgot to mention that they apparently called Jensen for ADR (audio digital recording i.e. over-dubbing) for 15x18. And while the thing he was covering might not have been a confession, it could very well have been something that they felt implied reciprocation too strongly. The people who were involved in the process said he recorded a lot of very tearful and pained "CAS"s that were never used, so I feel like there was a deliberate effort to make Dean seem impassive to Cas' confession.

My suspicion is that Supernatural was never going to confirm Dean's feelings one way or the other about Cas, and always intended to leave it ambiguous and up for interpretation. Which, to be clear, is still incredibly shitty of them since they deliberately strung us along and the world needs more bisexual representation that looks like Dean Winchester. However, the ending we got wasn't an "up for interpretation" ending. It was deliberately scrubbed of anything that remotely hinted at Dean being attracted to Cas. A bro-hug in heaven and meaningful glance would have been chickenshit, but all but erasing Cas entirely and never letting Dean speak of him again? That's pure evil. And I think it could only have been the result of corporate meddling.

>> No.3511082
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Ah. I fully admit that as a election-bandwagoning newfag I don't actually know shit. But that would explain all the Cas art I've seen that gives him multiple pairs of wings.

Had a feeling that was a case re: the fanfic > art situation, what with it being famous for J2 and ABO and so on. Definitely more of an artfag, but I'm not super picky either. Thanks in advance.

>> No.3511089 [DELETED]
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Quoted By: >>3511099

I'm guessing "hellers" means the truthers or something?

>> No.3511091
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I'm guessing "hellers" means the truthers or something?

Oh yeah and even though I'm posting this I don't necessarily agree with most of the wild theories people are throwing out about what the CW might've covered up, because it's usually less than they hope for if anything at all. Stuff like that usually tends to get scrapped at the drawing board. But eh, I think it's funny.

>> No.3511099
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"Hellers" is the fandom name for people who ship Destiel. It was originally derogatory, short for "destiheller", and was meant to both reference the fact that Dean and Cas were literally a match made in hell, and imply that people who shipped them were hell to be around. These days deancas shippers have reclaimed the phrase and it's not really considered an insult anymore.

You can basically split the fandom into two factions: the hellers and the bibros/bronlies (meaning fans of both brothers, or brothers only). In addition to loving DeanCas and Castiel in general, hellers are usually supportive of the extended cast, enjoy the biblical heaven and hell storylines, and think Supernatural is a show about found family. While everyone with a brain knows that Supernatural's writing has been on the decline since S5, hellers are generally less critical of newer seasons. They also have a reputation for skipping the first 3 seasons and starting with the entrance of Cas. Bibros, on the other hand, generally dislike all characters that take screentime away from the Winchester boys, and hate Castiel the most of all for making his way into the main cast. They are often incest shippers or self-shippers. Bibros are nostalgic for the first 3 seasons, when spn was more focused on horror elements and episodic motw storylines. They want Supernatural to be a story about two brothers following in their father's footsteps, and nothing more. They have a reputation for being misogynistic.

The hellers are definitely the larger faction of today's fandom, but bibro values are more in-line with the sensibilities of casual viewers and a general audience. Episode 15x20 was quintessential bibro pandering.

All of my silly Cas pics require the context of the show. You've stumped me.

>> No.3511104
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>All of my silly Cas pics require the context of the show. You've stumped me.
That's still fine. Cas is cute.

>> No.3511113
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Quoted By: >>3511660 >>3511661

Also thanks for the detailed explanation. Yeah, I probably would've been a Heller if I got into this show, and not even for shipping reasons, but more because most of the things they like seem up my alleyway.

MOTW usually puts me off, but I really like urban fantasies that go deep on metaphysics and angels and other Judaeo-Christian lore. I was super big on JRPGs like Xenogears or SMT (more to the ones where you tell your pet angels to shoot Megidolaons out his quadruple-dicks at God than Persona). I do get that serial stories with more side characters is harder to juggle and keep consistent, but still.

>> No.3511293
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>> No.3511294
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Quoted By: >>3511660 >>3511661

Oh no, watching clips of the show in trying to understand the memes more is turning me into a Castielfag for real. He's too much like another character I'm fond of despite being an objectively badly written work and for similar reasons.
The turbo-autism and fixation on his human "friends" is too cute.

>> No.3511296
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Might as well share some other stuff I've dug out too.

>> No.3511297
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>> No.3511298
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Quoted By: >>3511303

>> No.3511303
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>> No.3511305
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>> No.3511308
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>> No.3511454
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Quoted By: >>3511663

Wew, it really seems Misha misunderstood the tag. I'm glad he actually took his time to read the comments and see the real problem. Episode 18 was important to alot of people, and the real problem is how quickly it was forgotten and how Cas was just erased from the story. Fucking Dabb.
I'm also glad I was cautious with the spanish dub, while I was happy we got canon destiel (again), I knew that it was a problem giving Dean a different answer. It was good while it lasted, but it only brings more questions to if we really had another script, if Misha is lying, etc.

>> No.3511461
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Quoted By: >>3511470

At this point, destiel is canon, we liking it or not.

>> No.3511466

there is an italian dub lake too

>> No.3511470
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Quoted By: >>3511556

So the stuff about the "Indian dub" was just a joke that got taken way too seriously by the no-fun-allowed part of the fanbase?

>> No.3511556
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Quoted By: >>3511565

you forgot the detail that some bibros hate Misha for no reason

most likely

>> No.3511565
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To be fair I always got the impression that Misha plays with fire a little more than is healthy, especially given the hairtrigger nature of Tumblr-centric fandoms, but that's never an excuse for mindless hate.

>> No.3511660 [DELETED]

Yeah, motw stories are pretty boring. I started watching the show somewhere around 2012, mainly because I'd heard so much about Castiel online and wanted to know what the hype was. I impatiently slogged through the first 3 seasons waiting for him to show up, and it wasn't until I went back and re-watched them that I appreciated how great the writing and directing was in those early episodes. No doubt, though, a lot of it was pointless filler. And the generic monster set-up scenes that happen before the title cards are almost always skip-able.

If you're looking for an episode list that cuts out a lot of the fat, I think this list is pretty decent if you avoid all of the skips and maybe watches. But it does cut out some good Destiel episodes in the later seasons (like 12x12, that one is must-watch), so use it in conjunction with >>3508566

Conner and Cas are so much alike! They even look similar. They must be soul brothers.

Another easy comparison is Cas and Aziraphale. Kripke has openly admitted to taking a lot of inspiration from Good Omens and other Gaimen works, hence the demon Crowley. Cas and Aziraphale aren't exactly alike, but they are both angels who betrayed heaven to stop the apocalypse, and they both fell in love with, uh, corrupting influences.

Have you seen this compilation yet?

>> No.3511661
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Yeah, motw stories are pretty boring. I started watching the show somewhere around 2012, mainly because I'd heard so much about Castiel online and wanted to know what the hype was. I impatiently slogged through the first 3 seasons waiting for him to show up, and it wasn't until I went back and re-watched them that I appreciated how great the writing and directing was in those early episodes. No doubt, though, a lot of it was pointless filler. And the generic monster set-up scenes that happen before the title cards are almost always skip-able.

If you're looking for an episode list that cuts out a lot of the fat, I think this list is pretty decent if you avoid all of the skips and maybe watches. But it does cut out some good Destiel episodes in the later seasons (like 12x12, that one is must-watch), so use it in conjunction with >>3508566 (You)

Conner and Cas are so much alike! They even look similar. They must be soul brothers.

Another easy comparison is Cas and Aziraphale. Kripke has openly admitted to taking a lot of inspiration from Good Omens and other Gaimen works, hence the demon Crowley. Cas and Aziraphale aren't exactly alike, but they are both angels who betrayed heaven to stop the apocalypse, and they both fell in love with, uh, corrupting influences.

Have you seen this compilation yet?

>> No.3511663
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Quoted By: >>3511744

I feel kind of bad that he's involved in it now. This was never supposed to be an attack on him. Some of his words were a little tone-deaf, but it's clear that he never meant any harm. You can tell he was really proud of that scene, and he should be. It wasn't the scene or the confession that was the issue, just what came after it. And how it was edited, apparently. None of that was anything he could control. And he's right to say that Cas' death wasn't really 'bury your gays' if the original script had his return. But since they removed him from the finale then sorry, you couldn't be more 'bury your gays' if you tried. Film is a visual medium, and if we don't see a character physically return to the screen then to the audience he is still dead.

I'm actually sort of pissed with tumblr and twitter for getting so worked up over such a flimsy piece of evidence that was easily disproven. Now it looks like the whole conspiracy is delusional when there is still so much left to be accounted for, and when 15x18 was never the one we were focused on until that dub was released. I'm not sure how much we can trust the Italian dub. It certainly seems real, but it won't be air for another year. If it is legit I see no way the network would let another dub get away with that after the Spanish dub, and I'm sure they will re-record it before it airs. We may never know if it's real, but it is suspicious.

That shot of a shocked Dean from the early promo is breaking my heart. Cutting out his reactions was such a disservice to Jensen, and he should be pissed about it. This makes it clear that the editing was behind making the confession as no-homo for Dean as it possibly could, not the actors or writers. I really want to see what the scene looked like before they butchered it in post. Somebody needs to hack into Jensen's phone and release the tape.

>> No.3511664
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>> No.3511666
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>> No.3511693
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>> No.3511744
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So much happened in only one week, everything is still a mess and we have no answers for so many questions. I don't trust the italian dub at all, and I was always a little suspicious of the spanish one (that turned to be real, so there's that, but they're re-dubbing it probably). I do believe Dean's emotions in that scene were more emotional than what we got, with more tears and a possible nod to the fact that he felt the same for Cas. Of course I don't believe that after crying for hours over his death, on the floor, ignoring his brother's call Dean would just move on without trying to fight for Cas. I believe he loved Cas back.

>I'm actually sort of pissed with tumblr and twitter for getting so worked up over such a flimsy piece of evidence that was easily disproven.

Exactly. If there's no proof of it, I just try to enjoy it without making a big deal of it. All we can do now is wait until Jensen releases the video (probably won't, it's personal for him) or someone to leaks all the scripts. My ideal thing to happen would be one of the actors creating an ao3 account to post the script/rant there. And yes, so much was cut from his reaction that no wonder he's pissed about the ending. If supernatural comes back, I hope they just ignore the shitty ending and we continue from the bunker with TFW 2.0 still together trying to fight chuck.

>> No.3511745
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I miss Cas so much this is not funny anymore

>> No.3511819
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>> No.3511820
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>> No.3511821
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Quoted By: >>3511823

Even non-fans and non-shippers should be able to understand how "gay protagonist confesses his (gay) love, dies, and never shows up onscreen or is acknowledged aside from a few token mentions" is kind of fucked up, regardless of how else the other character responds. How did they ever think this would be OK?

>> No.3511822
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>> No.3511823
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>> No.3512234
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Quoted By: >>3512235

This art makes me wonder if there's any AU fic about the unfortunate what-if scenario where Cas remains in Claire's body instead of Jimmy's as he falls for Dean, and how Dean'd try to deal with that.

>> No.3512235
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>> No.3512237
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>> No.3512238
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>> No.3512311
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Shit, I might have gone full conspiracy nut. I've created a spreadsheet to chart the timeline of the post-hiatus filming using the production board photos Jason Fischer tweeted to see what was filmed when, and then matched that timeline with Misha's twitter posts to see if I could find any clues. So far I've discovered that 22 out of the original 60 scenes were never filmed (presumably scenes of the extended cast at Dean's funeral and in heaven) and that 3 scenes appeared to have been filmed, but everything from their shoot location was completely scrapped. One of these scenes, scene 46, was the first thing they filmed after the hiatus, and was shot before they even started filming anything for 1519. This scene would have taken place right before the scene with Bobby. What's more, the Bobby scene was filmed on the very last day of shooting.

I propose the theory that scene 46 was originally going to have Castiel in it greeting Dean in heaven. They bumped the filming of it up the schedule so that Misha could get home to his family sooner. The literal day after they filmed that scene was his birthday, and the cast sent him a video singing to his "body double" because he couldn't be there. However, before that date I have found no proof of him being anywhere other than in quarantine for a month. The same day they shot 46 Misha interviewed Andrew Yang, but I see no reason why that couldn't have happened on the same day. I think the reason the Bobby scene was filmed last was because they had to re-work it to cover up the removed Cas scene.

The other missing scenes would have happened during the vamp case segment, but before the barn. Misha tweeted a lot about his kids around the time these scenes were filmed, but there is no photographic proof that he was with them. However, the birthday video makes me think he had probably left Vancouver by then, so I don't know what could have been in those scenes.

Wew, is this what the tumblr kids call "going feral"?

>> No.3512346
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IMO it's OK to do that as long as you're at least self-aware about it and don't hold yourself to it as absolute truth that warps everything else around it. Everyone who cares enough about a thing to get super invested is at least a little bit crazy after all.

>> No.3512366

Mate, you're going full QAnon. These elaborate DIY conspiracy theories are never right - they usually aren't even in the same ballpark as reality. Take a deep breath, step away from the madness, and find something more productive and more enjoyable to do.

>> No.3512706
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Wow this fandom really is falling apart huh. These past few days have been way too calm in the fandom, no more drama with Misha or anything to do with the finale. I think it's a consensus between the fans that something really feels weird about all of this. Scenes being cut, editing, Misha being in Vancouver (yes) or not. Nothing from the actors, directors or writers. After 15 fucking years, they're just silent about the show. The finale was that bad huh.

Keep up the good work anon, but remember to take breaks.

>> No.3512740
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>> No.3512862

Step away from the computer and find another hobby.
Or seek therapy, that shit ain't healthy coping.

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>> No.3513392
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Quoted By: >>3513405

thinking back on it they did the same shit to bucky and steve rogers in avengers, endgame. Not even a hug goodbye to your best mate? not even mentioning your plan? Granted, it's not 11 fucking seasons of bait but still a slap in the face to fans. Why do you hate us, big tv and movie companies?

>> No.3513405
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Quoted By: >>3513408

Yeah as someone who used to be kinda into that ship but never ever thought it was going to happen and liked the hetero alternatives well enough that was just disgraceful. I don't even need or always want my ships to be canon. That's what fanfics are for. I'm a crack-loving multishipper.

I just want the characters and story to at least make some damn sense first. Then we can scrabble our ships from whatever canon afterwards. Demolishing my ship was not the problem. Throwing multiple other characters' development and several entire movies and TV shows that I loved under the bus all to get that one No Homo though? Offensive.

Worst thing is, many of them were written by the same two people so there is no "I'm just playing with another creator's toys" excuse here. I pray whatever obligatory hetero love interest Bucky gets in his new series isn't completely awful, and that it's not Sharon because it was bad enough they turned her into a replacement goldfish the first time around. But after how the same writers who originally got the Steve/Peggy romance so right back then, then made it awful just to pray the gay away, I don't trust them not to fuck it up somehow.

Even if it was never actually supposed to be seen as romantic, and I personally don't think it was deliberate bait, it's not that hard to follow up with very simple "I still care about you, my very best friend/brother who I see in a completely platonic sense, I also wish you the best of luck with your very heterosexual relationships in the future". Hell they had at least one film to break the homo vibes part of it down beforehand without running away from them having a friendship at all.

It just makes them look ridiculously insecure. If you need to overcompensate so hard that you do a full 180 on several films' worth of messages just to keep them as far away as possible, you're admitting that yes, they really were fucking gay for each other.

>> No.3513408
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Quoted By: >>3513948

Like I know everyone says that big companies can't be trusted not to fuck LGBT rep up, and that's why we should invest in indie stories. But most of the ones I come across is way too twee or sappy or entirely about the romance, or it looks like crayola Steven Universe/She-Ra shit. Like, if it was just about the gay angels then I'd read CLAMP's Wish.

Just want something for once that tries to be a normal proper story with decent production values first, but the main romance also happens to be really gay and it's totally normal and not a plot parasite either.

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>> No.3513944
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TFW they made teh Rei, teh Kaworu instead.

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>> No.3513948

>Just want something for once that tries to be a normal proper story with decent production values first, but the main romance also happens to be really gay and it's totally normal and not a plot parasite either.

The you're going to die waiting for it because the big hollywood pedos don't think that's too marketable yet when your country is currently divided and one half just wants to justify commiting hate crimes.

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